Elder misconduct was a huge factor in my decision to resign as an elder and to fade. Elder bodies are often "old boys" clubs instead of a group of spiritual men.
Old Goat
JoinedPosts by Old Goat
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55
Elders Can Hide their Own Sins from the Past-Yet Continue as Elders? Read
by flipper ini was shocked ( though i probably shouldn't have been ) when reading the new elders manual concerning whether elders have to confess up about former sins from a few years earlier.
notice this on pg.
38 , paragraph 19 : it states, " if it comes to light or an appointed brother confesses that he has committed a disfellowshipping offense years in the past : the body of elders may determine he can continue to serve if the following is true : the immorality or other serious wrongdoing occured more than a few years ago, and he is genuinely repentant, recognizing that he should have come forward immediately when he sinned.
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any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
Truthseeker: The meaning is discussed earlier in this thread. It was a memorial to the Watch Tower Society with name inscribed on the open books. They have worn off and are not readable now.
Russell saw the pyramid apex as representing Christ as "head of the corner." The cap stone of God's organization. The rays represent Christ's guidance. Read earlier comments in this post for more.
Oz: The letter was to Baron Hirsch, with a copy sent to Rothschild. It's Russell's statement of belief that God intended to restore the Jews.
Most of the old Watch Towers are now online. A good google search will lead you to Russell's own statements on the Pyramid. Most of what is said about it by today's writers is wrong and out of context. It's a good lesson in research. It has always been true that print on a page isn't proof of anything. That's even more true in the Internet Age.
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How many JWs will leave the organization after viewing the Sparlock video? Estimate
by Iamallcool in.
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Old Goat
My children, all of whom are still Witnesses and two of whom are Pioneers, grew up reading the Oz books, The King of Elfland's Daughter and similar books. I'm certain those books did not damange their respect for the Bible, their inclination to believe what the Watchtower said, and even more certain that they weren't lead into spiritism and magic by fantasy fiction.
The video is stupid. It's not the first Watchtower product that fails. (If I still had young children in my house, I would not encourage them to view it.) It won't be the last. But I doubt anyone will leave over it. It takes something really personal to move people to leave. I'm not even anxious for anyone to leave. As long as they find a comfort-giving home among Witnesses, let them stay. I say that with my youngest child in mind. I think the Witness organization suits her. My oldest who is in her 40s has a sharp mind and sees what my youngest does not. She may eventually leave. Those like her cannot read what the Watch Tower prints and not have questions about the rationality and research presented.
Some are reluctant to part with cherished associations and beliefs. I became a Witness in the late 1940s when it was a far different religion than it is today. I was a Company Servant, a Congregation Servant, Elder, and spoke at District Conventions and lived in some of the most depressed, backwater places on earth for the sake of "the truth." It took decades of changes, personal abuse, up-close and personal contact with Watchtower personalities for me to finally say that much of what was done and some key teachings were wrong. Still, I have no problem seeing many Witnesses as true Christians, even if misguided in some respects.
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any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
To answer questions and reply to comments:
1. Schulz and de Vienne say they're about half done with book 2 in their history series. Book two concentrates on the years 1870-1887, though there is a strong backwards look into Russell antecedents and his Age to Come and Adventist and Literalist influences. I've seen most of their chapter on Storrs, Stetson, Wendell, et. al. Stunning. Things you will not have seen or will not know, all documented from original sources that include Stetson’s personal letters which still exist.
2. They have a public and private blog. Some of what is on the private blog spills over to the public blog. The private blog consists of long extracts, sometimes full chapters, from their research. It is unwise to post one's work-in-progress to an open blog. There are copyright issues, plagiarism issues, and one must consider that further research changes things. I've seen their research amend earlier posts. Dr. de Vienne pointed me to someone else's "history" post that copied something Mr. Schulz wrote years ago and posted on the internet. They now know this is wrong. Yet, the person who claims to have the best short history of the Watchtower copied it entire without checking.
3. The public blog is http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/ . It is open to everyone.
4. The principal donors in the first year (1881) of Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society are known. A document dated to that year contains the amounts donated and the signatures of the original donors. I cited the amounts earlier. Their chapter on financing the work contains a photo of the signatures with the amounts noted. You will have to wait for publication. I was roundly scolded for posting from the closed blog. Someone sent Dr. de Vienne a link to this discussion. She was kind but adamant. I will not repeat the mistake.
5. The facts will not dissuade a true believer. Questions about Russell and the Masons and “Illuminati” will persist no matter how plain the evidence is that there is no connection.
6. There are, however, surprising connections. They’re just not scandalous. Usually. Conley involved himself in the faith-cure (faith healing) movement and on the recommendation of Whitesides (Christian and Missionary Alliance) hired a C&ME clergyman to run his faith-cure home. This clergy man liked to kiss the girls as a spiritual experience. More than kiss them. It was a huge scandal, but it did not touch Russell.
7. S and de V. also found a diary entry from a well known female evangelist detailing Russell’s attempt to get her to go to lunch. No scandal though. They found a comment by a well-known Methodist clergyman explaining his attempts to comfort Russell over the hell-fire doctrine.
8. Lastly, you’re welcome. Watchtower history interests me. I’ve never seen anything as good as what Schulz and de Vienne write. The Proclaimers book looks shallow next to their research. They take to task, usually in a fairly polite way, both opposition writers and Watchtower writers, pointing out errors. I’ve truly enjoyed reading their sometimes snarky comments.
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65
any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
Sha'el is R. M. de Vienne, PhD. She writes fantasy fiction in addition to history. Hence the name. She is not a Witness. The truth history blog is run by her and two others. The other two are Witnesses, but they're very careful and honest researchers. I know - or rather knew - Mr. Schulz "back in the day." Miss de Vienne teaches history and literature. She used to lecture at a university, though right off hand I do not remember which. I do not know her except via email. Mr. Schulz teaches history, and is a long-time witnesses. There is, i believe, some sort of family connection between them.
Russell's beliefs were not numerology. That's something entirely different. He believed the pyramid's measurements supported a Bible chronology he got elsewhere. But we each see things within our own social context. Pyramidology may have fallen into the repertoire of occultists, but it did not start there.
Mind, the comment was wrong, no matter who made it. Russell approved the design. There is valid documented evidence to support that. But people say uninformed things. It happens all the time, not just in regard to religion. It's not surprising.
You might note that Russell did not derive the date 1914 from pyramidology. It derives from the work of several. The 2520 year calculation came from an American clergyman who published about 1808. The 1914 date comes from E. B. Elliot, an anglican clergyman. You will find a discussion of this in the book Nelson Barbour: The Millennium's Forgotten Prophet. It's an ebook on B and N or tradepaper on lulu.com.
It's well worth a read. The ebook is by far the less expensive of the two. It's about half the paper bound version. Unless you plan on keeping the book in your library, I'd go with the ebook.
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65
any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
I'm not aware of saying "I highly doubt, however, that Russell would have approved of such a monument." I believe I said he did approve of the monument. I've cited the 1919 convention report to that effect twice. Russell approved of all sorts of nonsense that came from others. Not to change the topic, but you ever read about the "vow"? How about Millennial Beans? Russell was a mixture of the very bright and the very gullible.
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65
any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
Russell did in fact approve the monument. It was meant to reflect his belief that the great pyramid was God's great Stone Witness on the border of Egypt. See my comment above.
The Watch Tower did not abandon this belief until 1928, almost ten years after the monument was finished.
How is it an abomination? It's not Masonic, pagan or any such thing. The belief is silly, though many still hold to it, and Russell held to it long after it was discredited by facts. In 1881 some used a pyramid measurement to suggest a prophetic crisis for that year. Russell saw the year as important too, though not on that basis. Still, the events of 1881 should have made him question the validity of his belief. He was very reluctant to abandon any teaching he once accepted though there are some examples of him doing so. The pyramid cap stone was supposed to represent Jesus, "the head of the corner." The rays going downward represented Jesus guidance of the church. The open book, meant to hold the names of those who died "faithfully", is derived from the Bible (Name found written in the book of life.) At most it is a very presumptious monument because it presumed to identify who god put in the book of life. Abomination? I don't think so. Misdirected? Certainly.
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65
any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
As a note to the comment: "Several years after Russell died, Rutherford had a replica of God's witness in Egypt constructed in the middle of the plot owned by the WTS in the Rosemont Cemetery. There is nothing at all about Rutherford's pyramid monument, however, that is connected with the Freemasons' organization, nor with the Rosicrucians, etc. I highly doubt, however, that Russell would have approved of such a monument."
As noted earlier, a convention report shows the planning for this monument started in 1914. The design was approved by Russell. It was not Rutherford's idea. That is was his idea is a bit of Bible Student propaganda. The idea came from Bonhet, was designed by him, and approved by Russell. see: Souvenir Notes from the Bible Student’s Convention: Pittsburgh, Pa., January 2-5, 1919, page 7 .
You should be able to find that online.
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65
any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
Mind,
The cemetery predates the Masonic temple by decades. Masonic membership was common: it would be hard to find a cemetery that has no Masonic burials. In what way was he influenced by masons? The claim is without foundation.<p>
He was influenced primarily by British Literalists and American Age-to-Come believers, especially those associated with The Restitution, a paper published in the American Mid-West. Some of his beliefs, especially his chronology come from others such as Barbour and E. B. Elliot. Elliot was an Anglican. Barbour is often described as an Adventist. He WAS an Adventist. By the time Russell met him he had converted to Age-to-Come belief and associated with Mark Allen's Blessed Hope organization in a very loose fashion. By the late 1880s Barbour was styling his congregation in Rochester as the Restitution Church and was fully involved with Mark Allen's organization.</p><p>
Many of Russell's beliefs came to him from George Stetson. Stetson accepted ordination fromr the Ohio Conference of the A. C. Church, but by the time he met Russell Stetson was preaching Age to Come and writing for the British journal The Rainbow and the American paper The Restitution. Storrs is a well known factor. Storrs left Millerite Adventism in 1844 and was opposed by many Adventists. He converted to Literalism and even when associated with the Life and Advent Union did not teach Adventist doctrine but Age to Come doctrine. T. White suggests only one doctrine as original to Russell. Schulz and de Vienne suggest that none of his doctrine was original with him and take great pains to show where the major doctrines came from.</p>
Today, many call age to come believers a sect of the Adventist movement. This is wrong. Age to come belief predates Adventism, and it represents the standard approach to prophetic interpretation found in the UK and in Germany and the Netherlands back at least to the early 1600s. Russell was influenced in a secondary way by German expositors going back to Piscator, at least, through reading Seiss's Last Times. Seiss was a millennialist Lutheran. Russell met Seiss face to face in 1874 and arranged for Seiss to publish Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return as a supplement to Seiss's Prophetic Times. It was also published as a supplement to The Restitution, drawing comment from Restitution's editior and from Storrs. There is no detectable Masonic influence. That is all myth, created by a conspiracy theorist with no standards and repeated ad nauseam on the internet.
While I believe there are true Christians among Witnesses, I do not see the Watchtower as the sole purveyor of truth. (or even much of a purveyor of truth) I have no reason to apologize for Russell or anyone else. But if we want to criticize the Watchtower organization, we should at least be accurate. We disregard accuracy when we parrot stupidity we might find on the internet. There is enough that is verifiably true.
You're still accepting unfounded claims as truth. A short web search will not bring you to historical fact. You may want to visit http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/
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65
any truth 2 Russell funded by Rothchilds
by mind blown inis any of this true?
historian, historian, david icke states, "...it was the rothschilds who funded the jehovah's witness operation into being, along with other illuminati bankerz (ie, kuhn, loeb, and co.), through "contributionz" by organizationz like the rothschild-controlled b'nai b'rith.
this was proved in a court of law in 1922. one of the key people involved in this was frank goldman who later became president of b'nai b'rith.
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Old Goat
I do not at all have permission to post what follows. This is from appendix 1 of Schulz and de Vienne's new book, a work in progress. If they find this here, I'll be dumped from their private blog. But I think some of us need to see it.
Appendix One: Russell and the Masons
History is full of plots and conspiracies. Recounting them makes for interesting history. We memorialize some of them. Our English cousins annually burn Guy Fawkes in effigy and have a gay old time doing so. Our American relations celebrate the Minute Men (conspirators all), erecting statues, putting idealized, heroic images of one of their number on postage stamps, using it in patriotic propaganda, or as a trademark for an insurance company. A fiction genre derives from our ancestors’ plots and conspiracies, and we may be entertained by Dumas or bored to distraction by a modern-day incarnation of Luise Mühlbach. The suggestion that Charles Taze Russell was a Mason, part of a great, generations-long conspiracy doesn’t even meet the standard of historical fiction.
If there were any merit to this claim, our book would be significantly more interesting than it is. The ‘evidence’ presented by those who promote this fails to meet any rational standard. One of the boldest of those promoting this fantasy suggests it must be so because he believes it to be so. Various writers present an extensive “Russell Bloodline” that is supposed to prove that C. T. Russell was a mason, though as one admits: “This author has not established any link between the various famous Russells. Although I have been doing genealogy work, I have not had the chance to do the long term geneology [sic] work required to clarify the issue, if the reader is dissatisfied with the extent of this information, he is encouraged that rather than criticize to research it himself.”
Masons were in the 19 th Century extremely proud of their brotherhood. Invariably if someone was noticed in a regional history, a biographical record, or in an obituary, their Masonic membership was noted. Lodges kept and published meticulous membership lists. As you read this book you will find a number of instances where we note someone’s lodge membership. The Pittsburgh lodges were no different. Their membership rolls are easy to find. The Grand Lodge, several anti-Watch Tower writers and we have scoured those lists for any mention of the Russells. Neither Joseph nor Charles is found on any lodge membership roll in Allegheny City or Pittsburgh. Those postulating some role for Russell in a vast Masonic conspiracy suggest that there is a ‘hidden’ lodge, more secretive, malevolent, bent on dominating American society. They can’t prove its existence, of course. After all, it’s secret.
The evidence presented by conspiracy hypothecators (their speculations do not meet the definition of a “theory.”) consists of a series of non-sequiturs, pseudo-syllogisms, untenable, and insupportable conclusions. A feeling of powerlessness and manipulation underlies their claims. Those who advocate this theory seek to transfer blame for accepting a belief system they now reject to an ill defined conspiracy. They are unwilling to see, as traditional Christianity holds, that Satan is the prince of the power of the air, manipulating human society to his own ends; so they replace a demonic conspiracy with an improbable human one. Some who read this book will come to it seeking evidence for Russell’s Masonic connections. They will not find here what they seek.
Though it offends my historian’s sensibilities to do so, let’s examine the ‘evidence.’ As usually presented it falls into three categories: symbolisms used during the Russell era; Russell’s associations; and textual evidence.
Symbolisms
Decorative motifs found on Watch Tower publications are interpreted as Masonic. From an early date a cross and crown design appeared on Zion’s Watch Tower’s front cover. Because it was also used on Masonic paraphernalia, notably on the ceremonial swords, the presumption is that Russell borrowed from Masonic forms, covertly announcing to all “in the know” his Masonic connections. The logic flaws behind this reasoning are astounding.
Cross and Crown
Masonic use of the cross and crown symbolism derives from Christian usage. The symbolism became popular in the 17 th Century at least in Christian phraseology. In 1621, Francis Quarles wrote the poem Hadassa: The History of Queene Ester. It contains this couplet:
The way to bliss lies not on beds of down,
And he that has no cross deserves no crown.
There is a high probability that William Penn took the title of his famous essay No Cross, No Crown from Quarles’ poem. From Penn and others who wrote similarly, the cross and crown coupling became popular. For instance, Matthew Henry observed in his Exposition of the Old and New Testaments (published in several volumes between 1708 and 1710): “We only bear the cross for a while, but we shall wear the crown to eternity.”[1] By mid-19 th Century the phrase, “we must all bear the cross before we can wear the crown” had become common, finding its way into poems, homelies, sermons and common speech. Russell would have heard it repeated ad nausium. The cross and crown was found as an embroidery pattern; it found a place on Sunday school pins, on convention ribbons, and on jewelry, and this long before it appeared on the Watch Tower’s front cover or on a Masonic sword. The cross and crown symbol found on The Watch Tower in the early 1890s is a combination of type matrixes commonly found in a printers type drawer. The revised version from the later 1890s is a single type face, also common in usage.
Poem by Harriet Miston Tilly Published in 1850 . [i don't know how to post this photo]
Pyramid
A pyramid shaped monument was installed in the Bible Student cemetery in Pittsburgh. The cemetery is occasionally described as Masonic. It’s not. There is a Masonic temple nearby built years later. There is no connection. The pyramid was intended as a general monument with the names of those buried in the Watch Tower plots engraved onto open books. Rather than being a Masonic symbol, the open book motif derives from the book of Revelation. Those who want to cast Russell as part of some great Masonic conspiracy claim the pyramid embodies the “all seeing eye.” It does not. The pyramid symbol refers to Russell’s belief, shared by many others who did not otherwise hold his views, that the Great Pyramid at Gizah was a divinely inspired testimony in stone to Bible truth. We trace the development of this idea in Chapter Three. The use of the pyramid as a monument was suggested not by the back of the US dollar which had an entirely different design in 1920, but by the grave marker for Charles Piazzi Smyth, a prominent pyramidologist and Astronomer Royal of Scotland.
The monument was installed in 1919, some years after Russell’s death. One source suggests Russell designed it, a Bible Student convention report saying: “The Pyramid, as you will note, has an open book carved on each side, intended by Brother Russell for the names of Bethel workers as they ceased their work and were laid at rest, awaiting the great Resurrection of the first-fruits of the Lord.” [2] A Bible Student web page takes pains to blame the pyramid monument on Rutherford rather than Russell. Neither of these statements is correct. The monument was designed not as a memorial to Russell but “as a memorial to the society.” It was “designed by Brother Bohnet, and accepted by Brother Russell as the most fitting emblem for an enduring monument on the Society’s burial space.” According to Bohnet, work started in 1914. The pyramid’s purpose was not Masonic. [3]
The Bliss Theater
In the 1965 Jehovah’s Witnesses purchased the Bliss Theater in the Sunnyside section of Queens, turning it into an Assembly Hall. The theater, built in 1931, was decorated in an Egyptian motif. Shortly after purchase, the Watchtower Society issued a post card showing the theater before extensive renovations began. Because the original Egyptian symbols appear in the photo, the post card image is used as proof of enduring Masonic connections. In fact the Watchtower Society renovated the theater, replacing the neo-Egyptian décor with Bible-based paintings. The symbolism on the front of the theater was removed as well. A mindless determination to find a conspiracy where none exists perpetuates a myth. This type of attack characterizes a vocal but under-educated and rather stupid minority of former adherents. Current photos of the Queens Assembly Hall are available on the Internet. They are easy to find. Those with a determination to remain stupid simply ignore them or do not look for them.
Other symbolisms are also put forward as Masonic. The vignette in the corner of Zion’s Watch Tower showing arms and armor and a shepherd’s crook is one of these. The derivation is from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. The winged disk motif on later editions of Studies in the Scriptures traces both to Russell’s preoccupation with the Great Pyramid as a supplementary support to Bible revelation and to commonly appearing Egyptian motifs. All things Egyptian were part of a fad in the United States, fueled by archaeological discoveries.
Russell’s Associates and Textual Evidence
Without doubt Russell associated with some who were Masons. His uncle was a Mason. Some of his earliest associates were, and some of his known business associates were Masons. Does this imply that Russell was one? The authors of this book teach. We associate on a regular basis with children. Hopefully, we have passed beyond childhood. Associations do not indicate membership in a group. Find a membership list with Russell’s name on it. That would be good, solid evidence. Present that to us, and we’ll revise this book; otherwise, stop being stupid.
Russell made a few comments on Masons. These are taken out of context; occasionally the quotation is altered. Russell’s comments reflect an outsider’s view of the Masonic brotherhood. The quotation seen in context has Russell say that he was never a Mason. Absent real evidence that he was a Mason, one must reject this claim. Even if we could readily find his name on a lodge membership list, we would be left with proving a grand Masonic conspiracy. That is the stuff of second-rate adventure movies, not history. I am bringing this distasteful task to an end. Certainly some who read this book will not release their grasp on a conspiracy theory that gives them some sense of self-justification or of possessing esoteric knowledge, but the membership lists of the Pittsburgh and Allegheny Lodges are easy to find. Show us his name on one of those lists.
[1] See his commentary on James in any complete edition. He made the comment when considering James chapter one.
[2] Souvenir Notes from the Reunion Convention of Christian Bible Students: Pittsburgh, Pa., November 1-2-3, 1929.
[3] Souvenir Notes from the Bible Student’s Convention: Pittsburgh, Pa., January 2-5, 1919, page 7.